enhanced interrogation techniques

I just got up to speed about people being upset about enhanced interrogation techniques…. this so called torture.

#1 most of what was listed as “torture” was done to me in training so I have no sympathy. It sucks but it’s not torture.

#2 and this is the most critical thing……

If you are not a grunt, in SOCOM, the CIA or some other front line job, shut the fuck up. You don’t have the right to bitch about what other men do in this regard. I am not sure you even have the right to approve of what is done. It is not your ass on the line. It’s not your friends and family’s life on the fucking line. It’s not you who watch your once healthy friends struggle to get by on one leg, or his widow cry, his kids grow up without a father. You don’t pay the price for failing to extract the intell, you don’t get a say in how it’s done.

 

We have lost the war because civilians dictate to us. Every dollar spent, every life lost, every limb lost, every life ruined has been wasted, pissed away because those who risk nothing dictate to those who risk everything.

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101 thoughts on “enhanced interrogation techniques

  1. Liz

    I like how you avoid controversial subjects in your blog, Ton. 🙂

    One thing that I find interesting about the recently released CIA report…we’re the only one out of the ‘five eyes’ alliance with that level of transparency. Which likely means we’re the only ones in the world with such standards of transparency and oversight.

    Something to keep in mind when the international lawyers start screaming for blood over things like ‘rendition’. The public story is not the same as the private one, and this is the reason for surreptitious renditions via the CIA in the first place. Participating governments know such actions won’t be popular. They are not actions that are up for vote, they are highly classified security decisions and likely most of the officials in government had no idea they were going on.

    Whenever the matter is investigated, the most crucial documents cannot be released because they contain government secrets. The Italian SISMI head (Pollari), for instance, filed a request to prosecutors, to seize papers in the hands of the Italian government, proving his innocence in a rendition case. The papers document a deal between Italy and the United States on precisely such activities. They wouldn’t be released…nor will any from any other country on the long list of countries that have cooperated with the CIA, for the same reasons.

    Reply
    1. sfcton

      lol this is a controversy? Its only an issue because #1) we let bitches of both sexes vote and speak in public #2 we let politicians insert themselves into areas they know nothing about (which is every topic there is expect sucking off the tax payer tit) and #3) we let lawyers exist

      I really have no idea about the other stuff. I rarely watch the news. It serves no useful purpose and only harshs my mellow

      Reply
  2. Emma the Emo

    Hmm.. I have a lot to say about that. But out of respect for you, I won’t do it here. On my blog, I will. The reason I announce it is because I don’t want it to look like a passive-aggressive jab.

    Reply
    1. sfcton Post author

      lol fair enough but I would not have assumed that any which way. My question always is, why do you want me, my son and our friends and family to assume more risk doing something you are unwilling and unable to do?

      Reply
      1. Emma the Emo

        By ” you” do you mean civilians? I can ask the same question. Why is your safety more important than that of the innocent people who were among the tortured?

      2. sfcton Post author

        Classic woman’s preference for the well being of strangers/ out group over their own. Simply because of who’s side I am on vs the team they back.

        You really think they are innocent?

  3. Exfernal

    I look at it this way: someone does in my name something I won’t do, nor I would pay for doing. If he does, he has no right of claiming that he does it for my good. Modern methods of surveillance are advanced enough to make ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ obsolete. If it were a matter of necessity, I would think differently, but it’s only a matter of convenience.

    Ton, have you experienced forced sensory deprivation? Or a week without sleep? Torture is a matter of degree. Try something that is bearable in short term (like solitary confinement, for example) long enough, and it becomes torture.

    Reply
    1. sfcton Post author

      You have an extremely unrealistic idea about intelligence gathering, counter intelligence operations/ techniques and a science fiction like understanding of the technology involved.

      All such intell gathering technology is wasted when you operate face to face. UBL evaded capture death so long because they used couriers and face to face meetings. He’s dead because some other hajjis was water boarded. Somethings like listening to every cellphone call is to much intell, and easy to side step with a simple code. Plus it consumes way to much time

      #2 speed saves lives. Delaying things to make you feel warm and fuzzy puts lives at risk. Not your life. Why does your warm and fuzzies count for more then limbs and lives?

      #3 we as a nation send men to do bad things to worse people on their behalf. Regardless if you support the war or not it was done, then people like you want to add to the danger/ risk/ make job more difficult. You literally prefer the comfort of hajjis to the well being of front line war fighters

      #4) my old crew received more then the 3 week course of SERE training. Everything I read was done to them was done to me expect two items which are semi routine medical procedures. That’s as far as I will explain.

      Reply
    2. Exfernal

      Oh yeah? Are laser telemeters able to pick low intensity surface vibrations and convert them into sound reliably? Do you need a cell phone to track a person? What about planting a RFID tag on someone? What are the limits of microphone miniaturization? Still science fiction?

      Reply
      1. sfcton Post author

        They exist but are not nearly as effective as you think

        The laser is often defeated by a vibrator taped to the window. Doesn’t work on glass, window material and thickness. Which window?

        Plant the RFID tag where on him? In his food, he”ll shut it out. In his jacket? He will changed that jacket who knows how many times in few hours will trying to eluded surveillance.

        Again your stances seems like it comes from a guy who has read lots of fiction and science fiction books and not like a guy who has ever ran any kind intell op.

        Nor did you address other points. So so far, everything you have written is foolishness of with no 1st hand experience and yet you want to dictate to those who do this sort of thing for a living.

      2. Exfernal

        Don’t try to discredit objections by discrediting their source. Those who won’t learn from history (not necessarily their own) are destined to repeat it (imperfectly, of course).

        Would you disagree for the sake of disagreeing? I ignore the points I have no objections to.

      3. Exfernal

        Planting a RFID tag could be more permanent. Inside the sole of a shoe, for example, or even by shooting someone with a modified airsoft gun. Just do it in highly distracting circumstances, to prevent identification as such.

      4. sfcton Post author

        Fiction book stuff Ex. Shoes get replaced, they will feel the impact of the air soft gun, would have to penetrate clothing and skin etc etc

      5. Exfernal

        Weak. Lethal was ricin in the capsule. Nothing with the method itself. By the way, how would you detect such implant put into you under narcosis? It would require technology as well.

      6. sfcton Post author

        Under….. are you stoned? You would have to kidnap the guy, which is easy enough to pull off most of the time but once be goes missing for a bit he is cut out of the loop.

        What I mean by lethal is, that is easier to pull off. And it still has a 50% failure rate and was discovered. That is a bad operation not clandestine at all.

        Once again do you have an actual point based on a realistic understanding of technology and intelligence operations or is this strictly based of the last Tom Clancy novel you wrote?

        I am not an intelligence officer etc but I have been around that block a few times and it is nothing like your assumptions.

      7. Exfernal

        What? And how you catch animals alive in the wild? Not shooting them with a narcotic? Does it require operation room?

      8. sfcton Post author

        How will you pull off something like that in the typical urban setting in a clandestine manner?

        Damon dude I have never known you to be this thoughtless and out of touch with reality.

    3. Exfernal

      What you do to outsiders (not personally, by some gov agency), some day will be done to your compatriots (by another agency). This slippery slope was already tested, repeatedly.

      Reply
      1. Exfernal

        Would you like to make the suspicion of tax evasion sufficient grounds for being ‘interrogated’? With the future state of federal budget, this scenario is not as far-fetching as you might think.

      2. sfcton Post author

        There is how you deal with your in group vs how you deal with an out group

        I want the federal govt to die and the South be a free people, but now you are grasping at straws

      3. sfcton Post author

        Do you have an actual point?

        You are way off on technology and operational reality and you know I don’t support any such thing done to citizens/ in group.

      4. sfcton Post author

        Another failed operation…. nor was anyone put through anything but the normal legal system.

        This is getting old. Come up with a solid reason based on the actuall reality of intelligence operations or concede you don’t know what you are talking about.

        I have friends who don’t think enhanced interactions work for a variety of reasons, but their reasons are based on experience not emotions.

    4. BuenaVista

      Exfernal: “Modern methods of surveillance are advanced enough to make ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ obsolete.”

      This is absolutely false, External. This is a liberal-proggie fiction, a convenient escape from reality that also reflects moral exhibitionism. Not only are ‘modern methods of surveillance’ useless in the detection and control of malignant illicit networks, the USG is decades behind in the use of high-scale analytics required to exploit the immense data gathering that is the hobgoblin of small government minds.

      I know more about this subject than I’m putting on a blog, and it’s not second-hand.

      Reply
      1. BuenaVista

        The naive credulousness of the American people, in this area, is staggering. Couple it with an appetite for moral self-congratulation, and a juvenile enthusiasm for Hollywood CGI effects, and its impossible to have a rational conversation.

        19 of 20 of the 9/11 hijackers were known persons of interest in USG databases. However they artfully managed their network relationship across multiple degrees of separation (starting at 5-6, and declining to 1 the day before the move), which made USG gumshoeing pointless. 20 men across five degrees of separation means an observable population easily in the 10’s of thousands, and the FBI didn’t blink when I said, Probably 100,000. Like the FBI has the resources to gumshoe multiple such networks simultaneously. It’s a joke.

        We couldn’t even do a forensic on that operation, much less a predictive analysis; the admin/handler for the operation was never captured.

        Anyway, the only time I really lose my shit with these lefties is when I read about how we’re paradigmatically evil — in the same newspaper with 30 column inches on ISIS’ latest atrocities.

      2. sfcton Post author

        9/11, the train bombing in Spain etc are all examples of the failure in relaying on singint vs humint. Not that humint doesn’t have its failures as well but leftist congress in the 70’s drove the train for the CIA etc to set aside human intell operations/ sources in favor of relying on signint/ technology. Now they want to weaken humint even more.

        Reaping and sowing but those who reap don’t pay the price. Men like my son and my friends do.

      3. Liz

        “Anyway, the only time I really lose my shit with these lefties is when I read about how we’re paradigmatically evil — in the same newspaper with 30 column inches on ISIS’ latest atrocities.”

        But if we interogate them too harshly, BV, they’ll react by using rustier and duller blades for beheadings, and peel skin off of people more slowly…right?
        Let’s see….In reality:
        30 seconds of waterboarding – 1 gallon of water
        Information obtained – Priceless

        That said, I know a guy who worked in the HUMINT field in the middle east for over two decades, and he was trained in interrogation practices and he is very much against any form of torture (and he does consider waterboarding to be in that category). He believes that a skilled interrogator can get more information out of a person without it, and the information is more likely to be reliable.

        He said (as you mentioned) that HUMINT is the most critical asset to the mission commander (especially in a counterinsurgency and/or asymetrical warfare-type fight) – all the other INTs feed into HUMINT for effective collection. But we simply didn’t have it (I haven’t heard from him in years, last was around 2008…maybe things have changed, but I doubt it). We didn’t have it because our collection system was broken, which resulted in the failure to collect priority intel and also the collection of false/inaccurate intel. That type of capability requires years to establish and back in the 90s we had it – but in the first half of the ’90s Army HUMINT was cut by more than half and experienced, professional mid-career NCOs were offered cash bonuses to get out.

      4. sfcton Post author

        I have spoken with enough men to understand real torture puts a lot of men’s back up and they fight harder, but I have spoken to men who says the enhanced interrogation stuff works better then batteries and jumper cables because when the detainee gives up, he has given up.

        I also know of, 1st hand, two missions that rolled up some.really nasty dudes in a hurry because of quickly applied enhanced interrogation methods. Really bad dudes with really nasty plans to fuck up a lot of good men. The kind of men Ex and Emma don’t value as highly as they do the bad guys and their own war fuzzies.

      5. BuenaVista

        Liz, I have no professional exposure to operational humint. My focus has been on something else, and discussing that will ‘out’ me if I describe it specifically. Therefore I’m not qualified to comment, as Ton is, on things such as waterboarding.

        I do believe that stressful interrogations can produce bad answers, but where their detractors lose credibility for me is in the context of time-sensitive problems. (If you have two years to build rapport with a prisoner, it’s a different scenario than having 24 hours before a bomb goes off or a SOCOM unit is inserted into indian country.)

        I also lose interest in the anti-waterboarding crowd when they oppose any non-AFM (army field manual) techniques, but are fine with the president keeping a kill list and drone-smoking anyone he chooses. Aside from the gross intellectual inconsistency, it’s pretty hard to learn anything from a corpse.

      6. sfcton Post author

        There are many men that no reporie can be built. It’s not how they work. The more committed to the cause, the less likely the warm and fuzzy approach will work.

        All interrogations can produce bad results.

        Being water boarded doesn’t even get you get the next day off from duty.

      7. Liz

        Side note: anyone hear about the recent attack in Peshawar that killed 141 people (mostly children)? The group responsible was from the area of our former drone bombing campaigns. But that wasn’t popular with the population, so now they can try and deal with it without us I guess.

      8. Liz

        “I do believe that stressful interrogations can produce bad answers, but where their detractors lose credibility for me is in the context of time-sensitive problems. (If you have two years to build rapport with a prisoner, it’s a different scenario than having 24 hours before a bomb goes off or a SOCOM unit is inserted into indian country.)”

        I agree. Plus, just objectively if the person were pointing a gun at two people killing him to prevent that attack would be justified, whereas making him uncomfortable to prevent a far larger attack isn’t? I understand the moral dilemma, but…no reasonable jury would convict.

      9. Liz

        “What moral dilemma?”

        The moral dilemma of viewing torture as an acceptable practice, rather than an extralegal, sometimes necessary (under certain exigent circumstances).
        Why not view torture as acceptable in general? Because I think we should hold ourselves to higher standards than that. Not because I think that the baddest of baddies deserve consideration, but I think it’s a bad line to cross. We’re better than they are because we don’t act like that do, and hold ourselves to higher standards. It’s practical, too. That’s why the Italians and Germans scrambled toward our front lines be “captured” by Americans when all hope was lost, rather than the Russians/Yugoslavians. People are going to fight harder and are less willing to negotiate if they expect a fate worse than death awaits them.

      10. Liz

        I should add, I don’t think the types of ‘enhanced interrogation’ techniques we use are a fate worse than death. I’m thinking of medieval stuff that the other side does. But it’s an answer to the question. My husband went through SERE too.

      11. sfcton Post author

        I say again, what moral dilemma?

        Where is the quantifiable evidence the enemy fights back less hard against us? Folks seem quick to surrender to ISSI. The Khan of Khan’s did some nasty shut and folks would surrender in a hurry before his main body showed up.

        As it was explained to me by men I respect and who are in the know, often torture allows the man to be the hero of his own story and he will actually lie/ resist better/ longer. However it can work quickly and effectively. Right tool for the right job. If needs be dire enough break out the battery and jumper cables.

      12. BuenaVista

        Rule #1. Everybody breaks. For more information, check out the 7th Cav. Never allow capture, save one for yourself.

      13. Liz

        “The Khan of Khan’s did some nasty shut and folks would surrender in a hurry before his main body showed up.”

        Khan put out a tent the first day and if the population surrendered they would spare everyone (white tent), the the red tent the second day (they’d spare women and children, I think), by the black tent time everyone dies so of course people surrendered when given that choice.

        My husband met an old Serb scientist in Washington DC. It was kind of surreal because he’d just bombed Belgrade a couple of years previous. The Serb told him that when he was a boy an American soldier gave him a piece of candy, towards the end of the war, and he remembered that his whole life. By contrast he mentioned the reason why the Balkans were such a mess. He told stories about babies thrown on knives and children’s eyes cut out and they’d make the parents eat them. And they will hate each other, and fight until every person with those memories is gone. It’s really a nasty business.

      14. sfcton Post author

        I was there, he was most likely lying. Probably the lest amount of any of that I have seen. The whole thing was by and large a media inspired crises, politics needed the diversion

        In the small world thing I recently ran into a man who fought on the other side, in the same area and time frame I was there.

        They will fight like that any way because of ethnic/ tribalism & religion. In the areas where the three groups were not forced to integrate there was no war. Until we showed up.

        It was the 1st major step in my anti americanism. Basically we wanted the hajjis world wide to like us so we sided with them over other White Christians. america is evil on more levels then I can count.

      15. Liz

        Just to add, I heard that Clinton smartened up and read some history during the Balkans campaign and that’s why he didn’t send in the helicopters (except for a very short time), and decided against ground troops. Can’t remember the name of that book though, it has been a long time. Anyway, not a topic I like so this is my last post on it. Interesting discussion though.

      16. liz

        Gah! My computer’s flash-whatever is out of date so I couldn’t view it. I’m using my kid’s computer now with a functioning flash player so this link should work (after so inauspicious a buildup, I should mention that it’s not THAT funny, kind of smirk-worthy though).

        Alright. Now I’m going back to my corporate jet to go skiing in the Swiss alps…oh, wait a minute, it’s Friday isn’t it? That’s hoist day. Going to procure a few of the Crown’s jewels. Or maybe the Hope diamond!

      17. sfcton Post author

        Ok this is pretty much done as far as I can tell but before it slides into even deeper obscurity, I want the take away from this to be

        not that I advocate either A or B but that I advocate these decisions being made by the men with skin in the game and field experience and not those who have neither

      18. Liz

        “not that I advocate either A or B but that I advocate these decisions being made by the men with skin in the game and field experience and not those who have neither.”

        I think that is wise, and fair Ton.
        Didn’t want to throw things off into obscurity. Just wanted to fib with some panache while I’m fibbing. 🙂
        Hope you all have an excellent day.

  4. redpillgirlnotes

    Ok true story, remember when the photos taken in the military jail surfaced? A gal who was at that prison was from my area, she came back and spoke to a group about her experience and was one of the “whistle blowers.” And this is the part that really rattled me and made me think maybe women should not be in the military, she and her husband were both deployed, and she admitted to me her REAL motive was to get back to her kids. I shit you not! I agree with you 100% Ton, I may not want to know what happens, but if it saves the lives of American soldiers, all is fair in love and war.

    Reply
    1. sfcton Post author

      It’s not about jobs I want or don’t want but expertise. Nothing in your life outside intell/ SOCOM, combat relates to. Unless you have done the job, you cannot possibly understand what’s required

      It would be like me telling firefighters how to do their job

      Reply
      1. redpillgirlnotes

        Yes, I get what you are saying Ton. My comment was more on a memory your blog triggered, and how appalled I was at that gal for throwing her entire team, under the bus, so she could go home while claiming it was over some moral high ground about interrogation techniques. She actually moved away, went into hiding, shortly after. I dunno, seemed like a traitor act to me.

      2. Sumo

        Actually, I’m sure you could give the fire boys a lot of useful tips on BBQ and lifting weights, which is what most of their job consists of.

        damn. Sign me up

  5. sfcton Post author

    Also what was done was not torture. I have seen torture chambers and torture victims. This is not it. No homosexual gang rapes, no car batteries and jumper cables with the corresponding finger nails embed into concrete walls and “claw” marks in the same walls from people trying to escape the pain. No faces splashed in acid, no fingers removed, no breast hacked off, no genital mutilated etc.etc

    If you think what the CIA did was torture you are to soft to deal with the reality of the human condition.

    Reply
  6. sfcton Post author

    Ex, I also th I k you fail to understand what resource hogs these things are and how much more they would hog by trying to be Mission Impossible like.

    You never have enough time, options or resources when things are ugly and you want to limit options, consume more resources, use up more time and increase the points of failure and risks involved. All so you can feel good about yourself at the expense of other men

    Reply
  7. theshadowedknight

    Speaking of the Mongols, they did what even Alexander the Great could not: conquer Afghanistan. They did it by killing everything. Men. Women. Children. Dogs. Rats. Trees. The reason parts of Afghanistan are desert is because the Mongols were so dedicated to annihilating all resistance that they would destroy the land if that was what is requires.

    The way to defeat a tribal people is to threaten the existence of the tribe. Kill everyone, level the town, and take a few prisoners to scatter among the other towns. They will spread the word, then you repeat as necessary. Either they give up, or they all die. Once a few towns are slaughtered, the rest will give up.

    The Shadowed Knight

    Reply
    1. sfcton Post author

      Alexander the great controlled the trade route through Afghanistan which is all its worth. He founded Kandahar, a city I am pretty familiar with

      Reply
      1. sfcton Post author

        The usa fought the most successful counter guerilla campaign of all times just ask th Indians….. if you leave near one… Which is unlikely and the point

      2. theshadowedknight

        Which is another good example of an extermination campaign. The reason that guerillas use guerilla warfare is because they are weaker. An army should take advantage of their position of strength to wipe out the guerillas.

        The Shadowed Knight

      3. sfcton Post author

        Yep

        We should have been destroying their crops in the a-stan. Food doesn’t shoot back, they are only a step or two away from starvation in the 1st place and….. donkeys should all.die. it’s their main transportation.

  8. theasdgamer

    @ Liz

    I prefer one of my seven other native tongues….

    Eight-tongued Liz, the multi-cunnilinguist, er, cunning multi-linguist. The ebul liz image with eight tongues appears in my imagination.

    Reply
    1. Liz

      Well….I wouldn’t want to lose my reputation as a tease. 😉
      I eight tongue salute you! 🙂

      😛 😛 😛 😛 😛 😛 😛 😛

      Reply
      1. theasdgamer

        Liz, just about the time that I think that I love you like a sister, you pull a stunt like this, lol. Some women like to tease the crap out of me. Serves me right cuz I’m a bit of a tease myself.

        On the women front, I’m fighting the oxytocin bonding again. It sucks the third time as much as the first two. At least I didn’t see the broad last night. The more time that goes without seeing her, the better, for my peace of mind. I’m still working on strategies to deal with oxytocin bonding and avoid it in the future. Distractions always help…my wife…other dance partners…tasks. And I have it easier than she does. It’s good to be able to read women.

  9. Will S.

    One thing that must be remembered, is that civilians, like members of the military, help foot the bill, in terms of paying the taxes that support the military – both military and civilians pay taxes.

    Therefore, most civilians feel they, just like members of the military who also pay taxes, ought to have some say in how their tax dollars are spent, whether by politicians, or by generals. That’s part and parcel of having a liberal democracy, after all. In fact, the U.S. came about as a nation in large part because of dissatisfaction with being taxed by the British regime without having a say in how their taxes were being spent; that of course led to the original ‘Tea Party’ in Boston harbour, etc. “No taxation without representation!” was a rallying cry…

    Civilians may not be putting their lives on the line, but they’re footing the bill (again, along with military taxpayers), and that’s why civilians feel justified in taking a direct interest in the military’s policies, actions, etc.

    Reply
      1. Will S.

        So, civilians ought not to have any say, but should just foot the bill and be quiet? That’s hardly democratic…

        As for the issue of torture, there’s a reason police forces throughout the Western world no longer beat suspects in their custody, and why we have ‘Miranda rights’ for those arrested, etc. It’s because it was found that too many false confessions were produced, by suspects who would confess just to stop the beatings. People are people, and so why would those being detained by a military be any different from those being detained by police? True, those who are soldiers, whether in a regular army, or self-appointed guerrillas or terrorists probably have a greater capacity than civilians to withstand pain and maintain discipline, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a point where they can’t ‘crack’ similarly; why should we presume that torture is any more effective in a military setting to that of a civilian one?

      2. Will S.

        And then there’s the question of the ethics / morality of torture, not to mention the question of whether we wish to enable the State to wield that kind of power over others, which could just as easily be deployed against civilians of their own country in a case of civil unrest. Not to mention the Geneva Conventions, to which most countries have agreed to abide by.

      3. sfcton Post author

        LOL @ the Genvoa Convention. Most do not abide them and enhanced interrogation techniques do not conflict with them.

        What gives you the moral right to favor hajjis over the fighting men of Canda? Where is the morality of making life easier on hem and more difficult on your own men?

      4. Will S.

        I do not favour the Islamaniacs over the men and women of Canada’s military; on the contrary, I never saw the point of sending our forces over to Afghanistan beyond either nabbing bin Laden or removing the regime which harboured him; the Coalition accomplished the latter fairly early on, I would have declared victory, and moved on.

      5. sfcton Post author

        Then why do you favor making intell and counter intell operations more restricted and difficult to pull off? They are already extremely complicated operations.

      6. Will S.

        Simply put, I believe there are things we are not morally permitted to engage in, even if in theory they might simplify things. I believe in war when necessary, but I believe war must be just, and not only must the ends be just, but the means must be, too. I have no doubt that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki hastened the surrender of the Japanese in WWII, but the murder of 135,000 innocent Japanese civilians was wrong, from a Christian, Just War perspective.

        It’s not a matter of siding with the enemy, or trying to make things harder for one’s own troops; it’s a matter of not treating the enemy unfairly.

      7. sfcton Post author

        Which is the damn thing Will is favor the out group over your own and

        The Alimighty shows us how to wage war in the Old Testament. He does not rescind those passages.

    1. sfcton Post author

      I do not believe in liberalism or democracy. Both are.failed. They fail, in part, because people with no applicable experience dictate to subject matter experts.

      Civilians say when and where, after that they are done. They no longer have experience etc or.decent input. Should I dictate to fire fighters or cancer surgeons?

      How you deal with in groups, is not how you deal with out groups. Liberalism goes wrong because they confuse the two. Democracies fail because they confuse the two. Why do you favor the safety and well being of foreign people’s over your own fellow citizens? Why are you qualified to speak on topics completely alien to civilian life and experiences?

      Reply
      1. Will S.

        I’m not talking about liberalism in its modern sense; I’m talking about liberal democracy, you know the form of government which Western countries, whether republics or monarchies, have:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

        Basically, a government organized along the principles of classical, not contemporary, liberalism.

        In which the people have a say in how they are governed.

        I prefer such to absolute monarchy, fascism, communism, Islamic fundamentalism, etc. It ain’t perfect, but it’s the best there is.

        You can fully well, if you see firefighters lowering their standards by lowering the size and weight of their water packs to enable women to more easily be able to carry them, object that you don’t want fire departments compromising the safety both of themselves and those they’re trying to help, and ask your elected officials to overturn such legislation; one needn’t be an expert in a particular area to have common sense and therefore an opinion on something. Ditto cancer surgeons, if you see them compromising for the sake of political correctness; you can object to them lowering their standards, and agitate for elected officials to overturn such policies. You can have opinions about how the police go about their jobs, even if you aren’t a police officer. Obviously, the details and implementation are left to those in charge, but in a liberal democracy, you can have a say. Ditto with the military, no less; citizens can have a say in any area, in a liberal democracy. And as a Christian, one doesn’t believe in relativist morality with regards to in-groups and out-groups; one opposes torture on the basis of the Golden Rule, for all. People used to understand this; alas, we’ve lost such understandings on a societal-wide basis. But some of us still adhere to them, because we know the difference between right and wrong.

      2. sfcton Post author

        So it is just to make the job of men fighting on your behalf so you can feel better about your self?

        I don’t support that version of liberal democracy either. It failed

      3. Will S.

        It’s not about myself; it’s about holding to the values of our civilization, and our Christian heritage. Christians do not believe in torture; it is wrong. We mustn’t let our enemies dehumanize us by making us behave in ways that truly are contrary to what we believe in, or they already have won, at least in part.

      4. Will S.

        The Golden Rule and its negative corollary:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:12

        And its analogue, the Second Great Commandment:

        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A36-40&version=KJV

        The question arises, of course, who is your neighbour?

        Christ answered that:

        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37

        Thus, even out-group members deserve moral treatment; God’s Word enjoins us to treat them with dignity, and mercy.

        These are just a few; I could find more.

        The Church didn’t arrive at its positions in a vacuum; they flow from Scripture.

      5. sfcton Post author

        LOL the church arrives at most things in a vacuum and does not refer to Scripture very often

        You are reaching; where is the thou shall not? Thou shall not lie, thou shall not murder etc. Charity starts at home and this is a lack of charity toward your real neighbours. And again these these are far from torture.

        But it is good to know people are not worthy of the military, intell community’s efforts. The since of duty etc is not returned

    1. Will S.

      Liberals aren’t always wrong, and conservatives aren’t always right. Sometimes, one’s faith may lead one to hold positions that aren’t popular, and that can end up resulting in accusations of being insufficiently patriotic, too liberal, whatever. Oh well! I’ll bear that cross, because the Lord is with me.

      Reply
      1. sfcton Post author

        Because the Almighty says “thou shall not water board?” & “thou shall not keep people up past their bed times”? Etc.etc?

        Liberals destroy. They always destroy, they always favor the out group over their own kind. They are always wrong.

  10. BuenaVista

    One serious problem with the anti-waterboarding cohort, aside from their moral narcissism, is that they make broad statements about “torture” — as though the use of the word, itself, settles the debate. In this respect a difficult and precise form of interrogation (and training, as it is applied to American SERE training) is just another politicized and corrupted buzzword: a postmodern theme, not a meaningful term.

    http://www.providencejournal.com/opinion/commentary/20150106-mackubin-thomas-owens-waterboarding-is-almost-nothing-like-the-water-cure.ece

    Reply
  11. BuenaVista

    And then there’s this. Enhanced interrogation was used on 30 out of tens of thousands of captives, with waterboarding used on 3 of the 30. Americans broadly support the practice.

    “The fact is, in actual practice the techniques were only used “rarely.” Of the tens of thousands of individuals captured since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, only about 30 were subjected to enhanced interrogation of any kind, and just three underwent waterboarding. So “rarely” is the answer that most closely approximates what actually took place. That means 57 percent of Americans would actually be willing to support the use of enhanced interrogation techniques more frequently than they were actually employed.

    “…One of the architects of the CIA program, James Mitchell, recently revealed on “The Kelly File” that at one point Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) told him: “Your country will turn on you. The liberal media will turn on you. The people will grow tired of this, they will turn on you. And when they do, you are going to be abandoned.”

    “KSM was wrong. Yes, the liberal media turned on Mitchell and the other CIA officials who got captured al-Qaeda leaders to reveal their plans for new attacks. So did Eric Holder and Dianne Feinstein.”

    “But the American people never did.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-democrats-lose-the-torture-debate/2015/01/05/5e5347ca-94da-11e4-927a-4fa2638cd1b0_story.html

    Reply
    1. Liz

      Good article, BV.
      Dianne Feinstein is the knucklehead who publicly revealed the drone program in Pakistan.
      She should be forced to camp out in Peshawar for a while.

      Reply
  12. sfcton Post author

    the topic is an excellent focal point of the left/ traditionalist divide.
    the left loves themselves some fuzzy logic and love to put their warm fuzzy feelings over hard cold reality.
    their warm fuzzy feelings matter more then the lives of men so its no big deal to make the lives of men more difficult/ assume greater risk so the leftist can feel good about themselves, and lets face it, counter insurgency/ war fighting etc is a White man’s gig and the left puts no value on the lives of White men
    Its about favoring the out group over people who look like you, live like you, speak the same language, have the same customs etc etc. Out group over your in group.
    an amazing belief in technology
    the leftist thinks every one’s opinion is equally worthy even if they are ridiculously uninformed
    they love to spout dumb shit like torture doesn’t work. it works like a motherfucking charm which is why it has lasted so long
    they want to bitch, moan and whine (bmw) about the usa’s enhanced interrogation but do fuck all about real torture done by brown skinned people or what ever leftist nation state that might be still around.

    I am sure I could come up with a lot more if I cared enough to keep going

    Reply
    1. sfcton Post author

      LOL pineapple in the 1/2 gallon mason jar, strawberries in the 1/2 gallon jug… both floating the strongest corn liquor I have ever made. The meter said it was 97.5% booze.

      Reply
      1. sfcton Post author

        LOL the pineapple will too. By the time I drink it it will be pretty damn dissolved

        I think banana would be to subtle a flavor to be successful. Strawberry will be too but some folks have to learn their lessons the hard way

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